Please Don't Test That with Karl Gilis

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[00:00:15] Sani: Welcome to no hacks show a weekly podcast in which smart people talk to you about better online experiences. Today, we're talking about not testing. Yeah, not testing. You heard that, right? We're talking about not testing on this podcast. And to do that, I have a guest who has been announced as one of the most entertaining speakers I've had the privilege to learn and laugh with.

He's also been described as just as fun and enlightening as else arts. He's partnered at AG consult. And if that is not a high bar to clear, I don't know what is. So Kyle Gillis, welcome to the show.

[00:00:44] Karl: Thank you. Happy to be here. But you said something about only smart people. So what am I doing

[00:00:50] Sani: Oh, come on. Come on. No, no, no, we're not doing that. My first question for you. It's an important question from what I've heard is what does a baby whale have to do with user testing?

[00:01:01] Karl: Is that one coming from else? Oh, it was one of our,

[00:01:04] Sani: know. Maybe.

[00:01:05] Karl: it was one of our first user tests we did. And it was for Microsoft. It was their multimedia system, something Windows, whatever, 98 or something. And. Uh, we were there in the rooms, but luckily enough, we were both in a forward room. So the participant was in a separate room and we asked the question through a microphone.

And one of the questions was, but mind you, the questions were made, I think, by Microsoft America and was like, okay, can you start the video of the baby whale? And there was this Dutch guy. And he said like, well, I don't know. That's a strange name for a baby. And I started laughing, laughing. And I was so happy that I was in a full room, but I have to run out because the people from Microsoft, they were really looking at me like, what the fuck?

But I, yeah, I couldn't stop laughing for five or 10 minutes. It was like baby whale. Oh, that's a strange name for a baby. Okay.

[00:02:01] Sani: That's amazing.

[00:02:02] Karl: So, and that's the proof that yes, you have to prepare interview questions

[00:02:06] Sani: that, that's

[00:02:07] Karl: dry run them. Yeah.

[00:02:09] Sani: I only had the question. I didn't know what the answer would be. This is incredible. Thank you so much for the laugh. Now I have one more and this one is from me. So. I saw your slides from Conversion Hotel

[00:02:21] Karl: Yeah.

[00:02:21] Sani: there's something you don't like about websites, one particular element.

But let's say, let's put you in a scenario, hypothetical scenario. You meet an eccentric scientist, let's call him Doc. Doc tells you he stole some plutonium from Libyan terrorists. If you get into his DeLorean, you can go back in time and try to convince the person who invented the web sliders, the carousels, never to do it.

What's your pitch to that person? How would that movie play out?

[00:02:46] Karl: How would that movie play out? I think bad for him, because I'm not a niggle shater. I will just, I don't know, but. Then. And yes, I hate sliders, but it's, ah, but it's not only the sliders. It's the ID behind sliders because that's what really frustrates me. And so it's not the guy or the person. We it's a guy or girl that for the first time used sliders.

But it's the continuing story of the same crap. Because before sliders, and this is only people like me that are really, really old that will remember it. We had something like flash and we had like websites with flash intros. So you came to websites and I was like first, like at 20 or 30 seconds, things going on.

And then we were like, these built to be like, this is crap. You should delete it from your website. And then somebody came up with the sliders because, Marketing people, apparently, they always want their website to be dynamic and funny. And then we killed the sliders. For most websites, the usability people, UX people, try to convince everybody in the world sliders are bad.

They still exist, but on most websites they disappeared. But then, The designers came up with the video backgrounds. But that's the same shit. And now the video backgrounds have gone for most websites. Although last, even two weeks ago, we had a question like, What is, what do you have against video backgrounds?

But there will be some other shit coming up. And that's the problem. The problem is not the sliders. The problem is the idea behind it. Why do we always want to make something that apparently we, as marketing people, not talking about me, like, but that is not good for our visitors, our customers. And, uh, that's my fight for 20, 25 years now.

And not only about the sliders, because the sliders is also just one example. There are so many things that go wrong on websites.

[00:04:40] Sani: But when you say sliders, video backgrounds, we're talking about elements that are introducing complexity that is not necessary.

[00:04:48] Karl: Yeah, it's visually cluttered and it's not answering the needs of the visitor. It's answering the need of a company. Again, we want to show off. And I think the main problem behind that is that a lot of marketing people are involved with the websites and they don't see the difference between advertising, which like for most of the time, it's not my specialism.

It's like a cry for attention. Yeah. It's like your banner on the other website. Um, even your, your Google ads, they should attract my attention, right? It's like your radio commercial, TV commercial. They should attract my attention. They should guide me to your website, your story or landing page, whatever.

But once I, as a visitor, I am on your website. You don't have to shout for attention anymore, but you have to give attention to my needs as a user. And that's a completely different mindset. So important to really understand that, that. Yeah, your website is not a visual show off. I'm not saying it should be ugly.

Not at all. It should be good in line with your branding. But it should fulfill the customer needs and answer the questions.

[00:05:56] Sani: I'm 100 percent with you. I'm 100 percent with you on that. Give me a tech, plain text website rather than some visual crap. I'm not even joking.

[00:06:04] Karl: No, me neither. I was just thinking about it was, well, that's, that's like 20, maybe even longer than 20 years ago. We did a test. It was not an apetus that in those days, the software didn't exist that we had, like this, because then I had some content website. So I, it was before ag consult agency. So we live from advertising from companies and they always made these banners and also animated keeps like,

[00:06:30] Sani: Yeah.

[00:06:31] Karl: we did some testing where we replaced those banners just with like text banners.

Yeah. The, the, the clicks on those banners were so much higher because, Yeah,

[00:06:43] Sani: the pattern. It breaks the pattern. Basically

[00:06:45] Karl: it's bakes better and it's, it's like, yeah,

[00:06:48] Sani: one thing I saw on LinkedIn last week, but I don't have, I cannot credit the author because I don't remember is they tested plain text emails versus like visual marketing emails

[00:07:00] Karl: Yeah, of course.

[00:07:01] Sani: were blown away by how well the plain text

[00:07:04] Karl: always works better. Well, most of the time. Oh, it's one of those things we always do. And every time the client's like, oh no, and we're like, yeah, that's right. Now you don't want it. Just try do it. And it's also incredible. When. We also see it when we open our mailbox for those people is like, Oh, you're one of those people who have those, uh, the images.

Not all by default. And it's like, yeah, but most people are like us. They're not marketeers who want to see the shizzle going on. And sometimes if you look at an email, sometimes the main call to actions are also just an image. So it means that half of your visitors, half of your readers, We'll not even see your call to action.

[00:07:48] Sani: That's a very good point. I mean, when you open your physical mailbox and you have like 10 flyers and brochures that are designed and you get one handwritten note, which one are you reading first? Like, it's a no brainer. You're going to read the, the, the one that looks made, made by human. Now,

[00:08:03] Karl: Yeah.

[00:08:05] Sani: in marketing are trying to reinvent the wheel, obviously with, with these things, with the video backgrounds. I know you, I know that's a word that triggers, keep repeating it. So why, like, why do people in marketing, like, let's try to understand why does that even happen? Because it, it shouldn't, right?

Education.

[00:08:25] Karl: at number one and on those stages I don't have time to go deeper into that but I think it has to do with education. Um, the marketing books are still the same. Well, most marketing books. Well, here in Belgium, I don't know, the rest of the world, are still the same since the 80s and the 90s.

So we didn't know a lot of things that we now know. Um, Internet didn't exist in those days. So, we've still I think, yeah, it's most people did. That's what I said. It's like the shouting for attention. It's like, Ooh, it should be beautiful. Oh, many times. And I misuse the word beautiful because once again, a lot of people think that especially I'm the old style you weeks persons like, like Norman Nielsen.

And so they also get the critics like, yeah, but if all websites are like the ones that you promote it, life will be boring. And I don't agree with that. Every website should be visually pleasing and right spot on, in line with the brand. A hotel website like booking. com is perfect for booking. com. They've been testing that for years.

I'm not saying that every website should be a copy of booking. com because there's a big difference if you're like just a cheap B& B or you're like the whatever it's called. And is that the name of a posh hotel? It sounds like a posh hotel. So those websites will look completely different. But I think to come back to your question, that education really is a problem.

Um, I'm a guest teacher at some universities and I visit high school coaches. It's only like half a day or three hours. But when I come in those classes, I'm like, fuck, you've, you've, you've been learning the wrong things for the last two or three years for partially. You see some evolution there, but it's already for 10 or 15 years.

I said, yeah, you are the next generation. Please make it change. But then these young people who probably

[00:10:24] Sani: do the same

[00:10:25] Karl: something, they learn something. Yeah. But then they come in those, especially the big corporations, where again, it's like, yeah, every company is thinking from inside out and not, not every company, but most companies.

And that's the problem. So it's education. It's the, it's, it's still the old ID. When I was young, I remember those days there were some dinosaurs walking around in my garden. Um, We, and especially my parents, but when I grew up, we were clients with the same bank for all our life. And we, I was a client from the same bank as my parents.

Same with medical insurance. Because there was not a lot of choice. That was it. And you went to the supermarket and you went to the same supermarket brand for all your life. That has changed since 20, 25 years. But I think a lot of companies are still, they still have the internalized idea, but we can force our vision, our idea upon the customer.

Nah, not true. The customer is now in the driver's seat.

[00:11:32] Sani: really, really good point. Also what you said about the websites, uh, if every website was the way you like them, life would be boring. If that makes your life boring, try some hobbies. Try some hobbies or do something.

[00:11:45] Karl: And especially, yeah, they, they, they always think, yeah, yeah. Our, your website is just a website. It's, it's a tool and it's an important one to, to make people aware of your products or that they're able to buy your services or products, but they should be able to buy your products or service and they, your website should answer the questions of your customers.

Um, and of course there should be a lot of branding in there, but. Ah, it's from a lot of companies the other way around. Oh, and I hate, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because apparently, especially in my language, when I say the word branding, then most of the time there's some like branding, but branding is important, but you have like different, yeah.

If you do branding right, it's amazing. If you do branding wrong

[00:12:32] Sani: Oh, absolutely.

[00:12:33] Karl: it's like, I'm so out of date.

[00:12:36] Sani: Absolutely. And it should be about the customer still. And we'll talk about, about the customer and about versus about the brand, uh, further, further in this episode, later in this episode. But so the main topic here is something you talked about, uh, at, uh, conversion The conference formerly known as conversion hotel.

So there's going to be, there might be a new, there might be a new name this year is

[00:12:57] Karl: formerly known as formerly known as formerly known as formerly known.

[00:13:01] Sani: There we go. There we, until he gets, he hits the character limit on the domain or something like that. Uh, you talked about, uh,

[00:13:09] Karl: Yeah, yeah,

[00:13:15] Sani: learning about optimization and you should test that the book, the mantra, like you should test that you should test that. I want to hear your thoughts. I have my thoughts as well that I would like to share with you, but I want to hear your thoughts on why this is wrong, why testing everything is wrong or forcing people to test everything is wrong.

[00:13:32] Karl: forcing people, forcing all people to believe that you should test everything is wrong. Different reasons. First reason is, well, let's go. No, I will change the order of the reasons because first reason is not everybody lives in America or Canada or Germany. No, because that book you should test that is a great book.

And when I read it, I was like, yeah, I'm truly convinced of that. But. I live in Belgium. I don't know, but take a map of the world and try to find a pin that is not bigger than our country on that map. Because most of the time when you pin, you put a pin on Belgium, you can't see Belgium anymore. And then the lovely

[00:14:14] Sani: You know, you know, you, you can, you can, you can zoom in, pinch to zoom in,

[00:14:18] Karl: That's why I said you have to have like a paper map, like a good old globe.

[00:14:22] Sani: yep.

[00:14:23] Karl: And the funny thing about Belgium. that we have two languages. So we have like six million people speaking Flemish, Dutch, and five people, uh, five people, five million. Otherwise it would be very strange. And the French part.

Good luck if you want to test everything, even for the biggest brands here in Belgium that are focused on the Belgium market. Sometimes when it's like a test that is not based on language, so we can do it in both languages, ah, it will succeed. But sometimes we have tests that we can only do in the Flemish part and not in the French part, because it's not enough.

We don't have enough people. So in that case, you can't test everything. Every test should be the best test, because we only have a bandwidth of like 12, 20, 40 APTests a year.

[00:15:15] Sani: Mm. It is

[00:15:15] Karl: So please, in that case, don't test everything. Don't do the stupid things. And the second reason, and that's why I'm so always convinced of don't do the stupid tests, is Conversion optimization is it's not the new kid on the block because it exists for now.

What? 15 years

[00:15:34] Sani: 20, something like that. Yep. Yep. Yep.

[00:15:37] Karl: A B testing, that the software, I think I did the first A B test around 2010 2011. But before that, I was a UX specialist. I still am. And before me, there are older people like Don Norman, Jacob Nielsen, in the 50s, in the 60s, in the 70s, They did a lot of research about user experience, in general, on computers, but also on forms.

Somebody made me aware that in the UK, There's like a booklet and it's from the 60s about how to create forms that people want to fill in.

[00:16:10] Sani: But that's the

[00:16:11] Karl: paper forms. Yeah. And if you read those rules, it's 90 percent of that you can just and it's still true. So our discipline is not new. We know a lot of things.

UX fundamentals, I call them. fundamental rules and we don't have to test them. We need to educate all those people in CRO about user experience and that they know the difference between what is a best practice because the best practice is what we see on many websites. probably bullshit. And really, UX fundamental rules, like the one I said in the beginning.

It's not about the slider. It's not about the flash intro. It's not about the video background. It's about the basic principle. Don't charge your attention. Give attention. And that one will never change. If the world, I hope the world will still exist in 100 years. If we're not all burned alive. That fundamental rule.

Whatever are we doing? Maybe we're not looking at screens anymore. But that rule, when it comes to marketing, will still exist. And that's something we have to learn, all these things. Because it means that first of all, our websites would be better to start with. So we don't have to do those stupid tests anymore.

And that we can use the limited bandwidth that most companies have, because we're not all booking. com's and the Netflix's of this world. That we can use them to change the mindset, the behavior of our clients. The behavior will not be changed by changing a slider with a, some patches of images instead of the

[00:17:54] Sani: some Apple vision thing that you can just move left

[00:17:58] Karl: but it's, it should be. Yeah, how do you sell your products and that's with words It's with a message and it's not about oh, shall we replace the square corners with rounded corners on our images

[00:18:13] Sani: Uh, this is something that you call cosmetic surgery in CRO. I'm not right, the square corners and round corners.

[00:18:20] Karl: yeah Yeah

[00:18:23] Sani: uh, the thing you said, giving attention versus demanding attention. This is not a business rule. This is a way to live and this is a way hopefully everybody can live. And it's not about websites.

It's not about sliders. It's just about honoring the person ahead of you and it just respecting them enough to care about what they have to say. Uh, cosmetic surgery is zero is what I want you to get upset about next.

[00:18:49] Karl: Yeah. Um, I don't know if changing the color of a button is cosmetic surgery, but I think it is. It's a stupid, for me, most of the time, it's a stupid test. Yes, Carl, but didn't you hear about the test with our 50 colors of Google? Yeah, that was a stupid test. Um, um, yes, but we changed our color and we had a big uplift.

So I see those reactions still on LinkedIn and it gets me mad. It's not bad. It's by famous people in our industry. Sometimes it's like, yeah, but then I asked, can you show me a screenshot? And then I see a screenshot of a gray website with a gray button. And they changed the gray button with a button. You can see, and they say like, you see, I changed the color and it works.

Yeah. It should never have been a gray button on a gray website because every designer, every copywriter, every project manager, everybody involved in the website should have had the education. Or should have read the books by Jacob Nielsen, Don Norman, Baymard Institute, that there should not be a grey button.

We should not have grey buttons or stupid colors on our website. And there will always be an exception because there's also Yeah, but I think that this Yeah, of course, it's all But if, those UX fundamental rules, they will work on 99 percent of the website. So please, put them through. If you have the bandwidth of Booking.

com, you can play around with your colors. Bye. Do other things too. And if you don't have the bandwidth of so many tests, don't, ah, sometimes you need to do an A B test. If you can't prove that your client or the internal company, you have to do a slider test, but normally we should not do those things. And the rounded corners is really something that we heard a few years ago.

[00:20:32] Sani: that was not a joke, that was real, like someone

[00:20:34] Karl: yeah, there was really, it was somebody in our workshop from a big brand in the UK. And I said, yeah. You're doing your beaters, but, ah, they don't, they don't change. And I said, okay, show me your latest test. And the latest test was indeed, they had square corners on images, and they made them rounded corners, because they have read somewhere that a rounded corner is a square.

Gives a soft impression for the client and the visitor and that's also the bullshit because that's also one of the problems that a lot of people don't know the UX fundamental rules and the bullshit rules because there's a lot of bullshit out there. Lately, a few months ago, we came, one of our Belgian clients is, well, the biggest, uh, the second, no, it's the biggest supermarket chain here in Belgium, Belgium. And they also had like, yeah, can you help us with our apetuses? Okay. Show me our latest apetuses. And AB test was called banner test 30 B, so you know that they've done at least 31 already was already 30 B tests on one banner. I was like, okay, we will change the way you approach AB test and don't do those eh stupid things.

The things that really make an impact on your business and changes the mindset, or it makes the life of your customer easier. The life of your customer doesn't become easier because. The button on the banner is now on the left hand side of the banner or the right hand side. That's Yeah, and sometimes it will make a difference But then you have your next banner and then you have to start over again or in two years time you make a new website You have to start over again, and I think that Not all Abitus, but most Abitus should be more profound.

It should be learnings that you can not only just use for this version of the website, but that you can use in your company and maybe not only online, but also in your other marketing efforts in the way you try to sell your products. That's about a deep understanding of the customers. That's, that's the power we have with online that we can measure those things.

But it should be ideas that, yeah, it doesn't change the company sometimes, but it changes the culture. It changes the perception, the way you sell your products.

[00:22:46] Sani: I think you said that, well, if you're not learning from, from doing a test or from, from doing anything on your website, you're probably doing it wrong because to get that 7 percent uplift or whatever, what do you, maybe it just drops the next month. You have no idea. My thing about testing everything and like the whole, you should test that mantra, if you have the bandwidth. And a few companies do, but

[00:23:10] Karl: Yeah.

[00:23:10] Sani: we're not representing those few companies and

[00:23:13] Karl: Most of the time not.

[00:23:14] Sani: My thing is be intentional with every detail on the website. So if you have some, some sentence in the cart or in the checkout page or in the contact, be intentional about why it's there. So don't just inherit UX from the platform you're using and just say that's okay, and, and the followup emails that the platform sends.

You cannot test everything, but. If you're not intentional about every single touch point in the website, you have a problem. Like this, this

[00:23:41] Karl: why is so important. That part is like, but it's not the big why, but it's like, why is it there? Does this element contribute or not? Do you know it? All elements on a page. Why is it there? Have we ever tested it?

[00:23:54] Sani: then learning that you're wrong and that you were wrong is fine, but at least start with a hypothesis that we need this because, and, and, and just, let's just end it there.

[00:24:03] Karl: do your research. Yes.

[00:24:07] Sani: the end. Uh, and I know you like this. What, why do customers buy from you? Why is it so important to know this and to learn this as a brand?

Hmm. Hmm.

[00:24:18] Karl: Because if you don't know why your customers become your customer, you're just gambling and you don't have any connection with your customers. So I think it's incredibly important to understand those two things. Why do they buy for you from you? Why don't they buy from you? Um, and the, why do they buy for you?

It's not only like the big, big reason. It's not only the, the, the big why behind the company, it's also why do they want, I don't know. A new, uh, place machine, or why do they want a new car just to understand it? Why do they want a carport? But also if you sell software, we have some clients in the software industry, sales, it's like, and that's typical, but it's, it's not only for software companies, but a lot of companies when they talk about their products or their services, they have like a list of 30 features and 30 benefits.

Oh, I even remember a bank in a bank and they had an insurance, a car insurance. And I think the car insurance had like 23 benefits. I was like,

[00:25:18] Sani: Okay.

[00:25:19] Karl: nothing possible. What are the most important ones? What are the ones that make a difference with your competitors? For the software industry. We recently had a client and they're like a huge, a long, very long page.

And then we started the customers. Okay. What is the main benefit of the software for you? Why did you buy it? Uh, why did you extend your subscription? And from that long list, there were only like five, six features that really stood out. It's also give attention, don't charge for attention. It's like what in our industry and I didn't invent it.

It's like the top tasks of visitors, which is related to jobs to be done. The top task is all of it. It's so important. The top tasks on the website, but also the top reasons why do they use a software? So from that long list, we only kept those six most important features. And sales started to move on again.

And then if you change it into the words of the customer, because that's the second thing we often see that goes wrong. It's like companies talk with their words and they say, you know, we don't use jargon, but you still do. You still use your own words, but you have to ask your customers. Okay, describe this in your words.

What is the most important benefit for you? And then sometimes they will. In this case, for example, it was like something SEO related and they had like a redirect manager. So if you delete the page from your website, they made like a redirection in the background so that you don't have an error 404 error in Google, whatever.

But they were always talking. The company was so it includes a redirection manager. Almost none of the customers said, Oh, what I really like about this software is the redirection manager. They said like, Oh, what I really like is when I delete a page from my WordPress website, I don't have a broken link.

I don't have any dead links anymore. So like, Ah, so the main reason to buy the software is no more dead links. Then you edit your website. Don't use the technical words. And those two things are so important. And you can never be your customers. It's impossible. It is impossible to be your own customer. So you have to ask your customers.

You can do it with online surveys. You can just, if you only have 10 clients, pick up your phone, do a short interview. Remember those things.

[00:27:32] Sani: But like you said in those slides, sorry to jump in, stop selling the way you want to sell, sell the way people want to buy. I mean, this is, this is just a perfect explanation and

[00:27:39] Karl: That's it. That's

[00:27:40] Sani: redirects and deadlinks, I think I know which WordPress plugin we're talking about that I've been using for more than a decade.

I spent 10 years as a WordPress developer. So I know really, really well what this

[00:27:50] Karl: Yeah. Yeah,

[00:27:51] Sani: It's the color purple or

[00:27:52] Karl: Yeah.

[00:27:53] Sani: it is. Plugin. Uh, they're not sponsoring. So we're not mentioning it, but it's a great plugin. Uh, I love that. And also, uh, why, what do the users and customers like about you as a brand?

Like that's

[00:28:06] Karl: do they like you about the print?

[00:28:07] Sani: why they choose you for, for,

[00:28:09] Karl: that's sometimes it's the big reasons. It's like the overall thing. Sometimes it's product oriented and also the opposite question. Why don't they buy? It's also important also for the big reasons. And sometimes it can be true. Like one of our supermarket clients, their supermarkets, they look very cheap, but also their products are cheap.

Personally, I don't go shopping there because it looks cheap. But if that's the answer, why don't you buy from brand X? And they say like, yeah, your supermarket looks so cheap. It's not like a normal supermarket. It's like, yeah, cool. That's what we are. Because all the people that buy from us, they say like, Oh, I can see that.

You see that the reason why you are cheap is because you're not spending money to make your supermarket like who, who, who very nice. And then you're like, ah, that's so it's because you don't have to please everybody. Because that's also something we use like, yeah, with all your user research, the white do and the why don't you want to please everyone?

No, no, no. We don't want to please everyone. We just want to know. Is the positioning, because that's more than branding, is the positioning right? Why, why not? And then on the product level, we also don't want to sell the product to everyone. We want to sell the product to everybody who is interested in the product.

Who wants, without knowing it, to buy the product. And then we want to know what's holding you back and why are you buying it.

[00:29:30] Sani: fascinating and interesting conversation. I mean, there, there are a lot of, uh, things that trigger people in CRO industry. I'm one of those people. You're, you're clearly one of those people after this conversation. I, and I love the passion.

Let

[00:29:41] Karl: it's the most fascinating job in the world, but I don't know a lot of other jobs, but it's, it's

[00:29:45] Sani: love the passion. I love the passion of CRO people in general and you specifically. So on that note, uh, Carl, thank you. This was a huge pleasure to get to just talk to you. Uh, and, uh, to everyone listening to this episode, please consider rating, reviewing, sharing, whatever you do with podcasts, and I will talk to you next week.