Behind the Click with Jon MacDonald

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[00:00:18] Sani: Welcome to No Hacks Show, a weekly podcast in which smart people talk to you about better online experiences. My guest today is the founder of digital experimentation optimization firm, The Good. He's a three time book author and now the first ever three time No Hacks Show guest. John McDonald, welcome back to the show.

[00:00:37] Jon: Awesome. I didn't know I had that award. I'll take it. That's a, that's a good

[00:00:41] Sani: That's a first for this podcast. Yes. And I'm very happy. It is you. I'm really, really glad it's you. Now we are talking about the book the book is Uh behind the click and last time we recorded that was 2021, I think it, or 20 or early 22. It was a while ago. It was a long time ago. You were also promoting a book opting into optimization.

So what did you learn promoting that book that you were not aware of then, that you were applying to promotion of this one?

[00:01:10] Jon: Well, I think starting early is probably the first thing. Um, it always takes way more time than you think, and it's not everyone else's priority to comment on the book, to give a quote, to review it and provide feedback. So you end up spending a lot of time just communicating with people and it takes a lot, a lot of effort.

So. You know, I've got a whole air table dashboard set up for this, that we're using this year to, to really push hard on the communication aspect and make sure that we're following up with people and, uh, giving everybody the chance to, to participate. And it's, we're having good, good success. Uh, I think that having two other, I think they're well written books, but they were pretty successful.

Having those. In my back pocket and now approaching people with a third one goes a long way. So that's helpful

[00:02:14] Sani: very interesting. But it kind of makes sense, right? And speaking about the other two books, 2015, the first one, Stop Marketing, Start Selling. I'm just reading the short descriptions. It's a comprehensive resource that shares the philosophy, process, and tactics that companies need to create content that converts.

So basically this is This is how you build a website that's going to work well. 2021 opting into optimization. The second book, it's a set of principles that helps e commerce leaders capitalize on unprecedented market demand, build sustainable thriving businesses. So basically, I mean, it's in the title, it's optimization, not just building.

And also it came out at a very, very unusual time for e commerce, the world, everything pandemic. The third book behind the click, what is it about? And how is it different compared to the first two?

[00:03:03] Jon: Well, the first two are heavy on the tactics. And even with opting in, I did try quite a bit to help people understand why I was suggesting these core principles, right? But what we didn't really focus on that much, Was the why behind it, meaning the psychological principles behind everything. So behind the click is much more about these psychological principles behind the shortcuts that our brains take that help us make decisions every day.

Right? So how are these different elements part of your company's digital experience to either guide customers towards a purchase or send them running to your, uh, to your competitors? So with that in mind, really wanted to write a book to help people understand when somebody makes a recommendation, is there a principle behind it?

Is there a tactic behind it? Or are they just saying this is a best practice because that's what everybody says. And as I'm seeing conversion optimization become more and more commoditized, I'm noticing that there's a lot of Me Too, uh, content out there. That's the best way to say it. And I really want to make sure that, I don't just tell people what the tactics are to try to fix their issues.

I want to show them why those issues occur. I want to make sure that their team can come up with a solution that works for their specific audience. And it's not about one size fits all. It's not about having that checklist. It's really, it's realizing that decisions are not logical. Right. They're heavily influenced by psychological factors.

And, you know, we make so many decisions every day that I just wanted to bridge this gap by applying psychological principles to improve these digital experiences that we work with every day.

[00:05:03] Sani: I like that. And, and it's not just finding out what works. Like you said, it's also learning why it works or why it doesn't work. One thing you said there, you use the term conversion optimization. And years ago we started with CRO, conversion rate optimization, and then it was conversion optimization. The good is a digital experience optimization company.

Now, I don't know if you changed that at some point, but I'm guessing you had conversion optimization way, way, way

[00:05:29] Jon: Yeah.

[00:05:30] Sani: So that evolution, I think that's also, uh, you can see that in the books, in the

[00:05:35] Jon: Mm hmm.

[00:05:35] Sani: you did, because this one, and, and this covers all different phases of, of a customer journey, of a user journey, specifically in e commerce.

It's not just about a page that sells and a page that converts. It's a lot more. So the phases are, and I'll just read this. Uh, I'm not, I'm not giving away anything. This

[00:05:52] Jon: No, no, by all means.

[00:05:54] Sani: are chapters basically of the book. So it's a discovery, gathering of information, decision making conversion, and then post purchase.

This is the first time that you're talking about in, in one of your books about the post purchase and something I would like to focus on today. And in my opinion, it's, it's, I mean, half of your revenue could be from the people who are coming back and usually is, and it's so easy to ignore. And a lot of stores do.

[00:06:20] Jon: Oh, for sure.

[00:06:22] Sani: absolutely. So, so the question really, you kind of answered what made you want to write this book. I mean, you want to, to answer why, behind the how, basically, right?

[00:06:32] Jon: Understand the principles behind it. Right. What's driving it. Uh, and, and why they should apply those tactics.

[00:06:39] Sani: right. And then today in, in this episode, let's focus on the post purchase part of, of, of behind the click, because that's quite literally behind and beyond like happens after the click. So also my favorite topic, what happens after the sale is really what I can talk about for days without stopping. So what are the most important things that need to happen after you make a sale?

[00:07:05] Jon: Well, you, you did a great job of segwaying with that change in how we talk about optimization at the good. And. You're right. 15 years ago when I started the company, conversion optimization was not even a term. Uh, it was, you know, we called it, um, continual optimization. Right? Because it was something you were iteratively working on optimizing your site at all times.

Then the whole industry kind of sprung up around us with, you know, Conversion optimization. And now that that's really becoming commoditized, that's because people are putting checklists out, they're really focusing on getting consumers to, just to convert. And that's all they can, they care about. And there are a lot of, let's just call them black hat ways to do that.

And, you know, really I had, I felt very strongly in this book about including a, a, uh, intro that clearly outlined how to use this book and how not to use this book. Because it's really not about taking these psychological principles that I talk about and using them against your customers just to get them to convert.

That's also why post purchase is included. Right. Because if you don't think about post purchase, you're going to think conversions just stop at the checkout, but they don't conversions really need to be thought of as a continual journey across that total customer lifetime value. And if you apply all these tactics in a.

Let's call them black hat way. You will very likely upset the customer in the short term so that you don't have a customer lifetime value. That's not a sustainable company, right? Not a sustainable business. So really, if you're thinking about post purchase, you're thinking about how you're ushering your customers along towards these right decisions, and you want to help them do that as easily and efficiently as possible.

And. You really can do that in these ways that work with these psychological principles or these cognitive shortcuts. So, after you lead them to that successful checkout, you really need to make sure that the, um, post purchase emails in, in there, uh, that they're experienced, but they, you know, the experience does not end there, right?

It really is all about validating the customer's choice. Or triggering the regret. And that's what you're trying to focus on in post purchase. Now, there are a whole bunch of tactics that go along with that. We can discuss those, but from a high level, really that last impression in this stage in post purchase is the one that turns one time buyers into repeat customers.

And we'll turn those negative reviews into lifelong advocates and really just helps keep your return rate low and your customer sentiment high.

[00:10:06] Sani: That's a very good way to describe it. And usually post purchase for most brands is email. Like there's nothing wrong with that. It should be email. You have to do email. There are other ways, but so what are, what are, uh, let's say, what are some of the mistakes, the most common mistakes that brands and companies e commerce specifically, of course, are making in the post purchase law.

[00:10:29] Jon: Yeah. It's interesting. For some reason, these companies just stop at the, at the checkout or even at sending that confirmation email. So. Really, the consumer is looking to ask two questions once they have clicked by and the order is on its way. They've gotten that confirmation email. One is, are my expectations met, right?

And the second is, would I make this decision again or recommend a friend to do the same? And you really have to be. In the head of the consumer and understand they're thinking about those two things So now you're post purchase whatever actions you take in that post purchase flow perhaps via email And actually in the book I outline the five or so emails that you should be doing at a minimum as post purchase But, you know, really, if you're going to tackle post purchase, you need to make sure those two questions are met, right?

Were my expectations met and would I make this decision again or recommend a friend to do that? And if you can address those two things properly and understand what the consumers are thinking psychologically as they're going through those questions, You will win post purchase and lifelong customers.

[00:11:52] Sani: That that's really well said. So. The only way to make sure one of the ways to make sure that the customer is happy with the product or service is you need to have a good onboarding process. And you need to make sure that number one, they are using it and they're using it properly. And that is not something you could do with a thank you.

We received your order. You will receive the package in five to seven work days that happens after. And for some reasons, for whatever reason, most of the brands just stop there and It's something I don't understand.

[00:12:27] Jon: that's exactly it. You know, in this post purchase phase, you're, you're not guiding customers towards a purchase anymore. You're really ensuring that they continue to feel confident in that purchase that they just made, be it e commerce or SAS, right? There's a lot of tools. I, I, I have purchased and. Immediately I have regret because I'm like, I don't know how to use this. They let me in and now I'm lost. What do I do from here? I don't have time to learn how to use all of these tools. Right. And the, I'm a huge proponent of the fact that the only good surprise after a customer has purchased your product is for them to find out that the product or service is even better than they expected.

That is the only surprise that is a positive. Anything else that you do that you add to this stage is really ends up being a negative. So you want to try to keep it simple there. So really the solution here is to have a clear and easy onboarding process, which you've mentioned. So, You got to live up to that promise that you've made to the customer, then make it easy for them to unlock that promise.

And that's where onboarding really becomes crucial, right? So if you get it right, there's so many benefits. Right. You get an increased usage. Right. You get higher retention, higher customer lifetime value, uh, longer term customer satisfaction instead of just, you know, that initial good feeling, uh, adrenaline rush.

I just, yes, I got in. I can do something now feeling good. Um, and then really a good onboarding experience can do even more than that. You can increase retention. All right, we can improve customer satisfaction, just reducing friction and confusion. So offering some training, perhaps, um, you can increase conversion rates.

You can get free trial people into paying customers. Uh, we have one of the world's largest brands of fortune. Fortune 200 company, uh, that pays us to do nothing but optimize their onboarding journeys to make sure that trial customers convert into paying customers, uh, through making it a better experience, right?

There's no tricks at play here. Uh, they don't even have to give a credit card to have a trial, right? Just get a trial. And then we're going to show you how good of a, this solves your problems that you will want to convert. And a lot of that is just helping people be aware. Of, Hey, you can do X, Y, and Z with this tool.

So all of that really is helpful. And then you also, lastly, would improve customer feedback by getting a lot of insight on how customers are interacting with your product. That is a key one I think a lot of brands don't do, is after somebody's been onboarded, collect feedback and then iterate and optimize that.

That post-purchase onboarding process.

[00:15:25] Sani: And that's probably as soon as possible, while it's still fresh in their minds while they can still want to share and talk about it. I'll just add that this goes beyond digital products, even for physical products, how to use them like skincare or I don't know gadgets. It's essential to teach them how, and, and they will not read the manual.

Like that's the one thing that you can guarantee with every single user. I'll share something with you. One of the quotes from opting into optimization. This is something that I tell every client I work with, I, with the attribution, obviously you cannot read the label from inside the jar. I think that is the most brilliant conversion or just optimization or building anything.

Quote, I would say applying that to a website where people who build the website don't actually use the website on their phones, like an average user would, you know, it's very likely that they will not try to use it like a regular user. So they will not know what that label says. Apply that to the post purchase, like even, even just emails.

I guarantee you people who send emails in Mailchimp or Klaviyo don't read them in their email client. I guarantee you that. They never sent it to themselves and opened it in a phone to see what it looks like. Is it too long? It's a completely different experience assembling that email in, in, in a tool, in a browser.

So that thing, you can't read the label from, from, uh, inside a jar. It should be printed. And like every website should have, or every website builder should have that like somewhere nearby.

[00:17:07] Jon: one of my favorite illustrations from that book. And by the way, I had that exact same illustrator work with me on this book because I got so many great compliments last time of taking these somewhat complex, um, You know principles and and really kind of illustrating them to make them clear And that one where there's a gentleman inside a mason jar with a ladder trying to climb out Um really just iterates, uh, or excuse me illustrates very very well how hard it is for a brand to really understand the perspective from a consumer because There's only two ways to do that is have somebody else tell you or get a ladder and climb out yourself.

And I advocate, you got to get that ladder and get out of that jar because if you rely on someone else telling you what your customers think, uh, you likely aren't going to learn the lesson, but if you're actually talking to consumers, you're going to gain that empathy. Right. So that's why we at the good, we rely on user testing a lot because with that, we can show video of consumers engaging with websites, with their webcam up and their audio, and they're talking through what they're thinking.

There is nothing better than getting empathy for the consumer to hear and see them struggling. Um, we did that once for Xerox actually, uh, when we worked with Xerox, they had a site that, um, they sold. ink for and toner cartridges for their laser printers. And, you know, we asked in a meeting right up front, well, why, why do you do this way on your product detail pages?

It's really difficult to find the right toner. If I've bought the printer, like, well, we're in the toner business, but really in the printer business, if we sell more printers than Toner. So our objective is somewhere printers. And I was like, well, that's great. But once I have the printer, now I'm upset because it's really hard to find the toner and you've created a horrible post purchase experience for me.

Right? And so what we did was we, We actually went out and did a bunch of, uh, user testing and took and snipped together, clipped together all these videos of consumers saying how frustrated they were that they could not find the toner and they basically said, you know what? I give up. I can't find the right toner for my printer because I don't know the specific model number code.

Right. I should be able to go and find the right printer. And then it tell me what toner to have seems basic, but for some reason, a huge corporation like Xerox could not get outside the jar to understand consumers were having that problem. They just were saying to themselves, we're selling printers.

We're selling printers. Toner will follow. And unfortunately it created a bad post purchase experience.

[00:19:53] Sani: such a great example. And also before you do the research, before you talk to real users, I think it's your duty as an optimizer to assume they know nothing. You really have to assume that even if it's there on the website that they didn't read it. I'm not saying users are dumb or anything like that.

People are busy. Like we have 25 tabs and a phone and Netflix in the corner of the room. Like that, that's, that's the reality of browsing and a toddler crying or running around for some people. You have to assume that even if the information is right there. A lot of people will not read that information.

And that's why that quote, that is by far the best conversion quote that, that I've ever, ever heard. And I'm glad I remember the illustration. I'm glad you're working with the same person because it was absolutely amazing. So one, one final question for today. What is the main takeaway you hope the readers will gain from Beyond Click?

[00:20:52] Jon: Well, I think the main takeaway I want people to understand is that there are so many decisions you just said it to so many things happening in people's lives, decisions that they're trying to make all at once. Uh, and I really want people to understand why consumers are making these decisions. I really want them to have a good understanding of the psychological principles behind that because then you can make informed choices about how you're going to alter the journey for them.

So, um, So, you know, by doing this, you're really going to understand your audience. You're going to understand what knowledge you can use to guide them to the best solution for their problem in the easiest and most effective way possible. And if you're able to do that, your company will reach your goals too.

Everybody will win. And I think that's what in essence has really gotten lost in CRO. It's really become about just Get them get them to the checkout get them to the checkout. What do we need to do? What tactic we need to deploy? Instead of saying, you know what, if we treat our customers, right, we help them at every step of that digital journey.

We optimize the entire, entire digital journey. At that point, you will have a happy customer who purchases. And guess what? The brand wins because the brand got a new customer that is going to have a longer lifetime value. It's going to be more satisfied. So everybody wins at that point. And that's really what I want to see as an outcome of this book.

[00:22:37] Sani: And I hope it succeeds because I believe that is necessary. Like you said, cheap tactics and just moving the user from one step in the funnel to another without understanding what worked, it doesn't lead to success. Anywhere, even if you get them to buy by, I know how much you hate using discounts to,

[00:22:56] Jon: yeah,

[00:22:56] Sani: uh, to, uh, improve the conversion rate.

And that's from your first book, basically. And like, you can use tactics like that. You can get conversion rate to be a hundred and you can be losing a lot of money while you do that, but no one wants to do something like that. So understanding what will get the customers, the users to want to become the customers is, uh, higher value than anything else that you can do.

Okay. With that, I want to congratulate you on, on releasing the third book and being a three time No Hacks guest. Like that is a, that is a club of one, John McDonald. Let me say that. Absolutely. So, uh, to everyone listening to this episode, I'll share all the links in the description where you can get the book.

The link to John's LinkedIn profile, the good homepage, everything. And we had Natalie on, on the podcast as

[00:23:50] Jon: Oh, yeah, that's right.

[00:23:51] Sani: guest. She was on last year and to everyone listening to this episode, I'm sure you learned, go and get the book. I did read the first two. I did not at the time of this recording, I didn't read the third one.

I will. And I can tell you they're amazing. They're a very, uh, easy read. And very, very informative. So I would suggest if you enjoyed reading, don't make me think I have a feeling you will enjoy reading books like this, any of the Jones books, and that's kind of as high as the compliments go when it

[00:24:22] Jon: I appreciate that. Well, thank you.

[00:24:25] Sani: yeah, Johnny, it was a pleasure to have you on

[00:24:27] Jon: Yeah, if you or anyone else wants to get the first chapter, you can go to the good. com slash B T C for behind the click. So, um, go do that. And then if you, um, do that, we're, we're occasionally emailing out, um, discount codes, things of that sort for Amazon.

So appreciate reviews, et cetera. Um, as you know, I don't like discount codes. But we're really trying to get some, some positive momentum here and um, I appreciate you having me on the show again to, to help out with that.

[00:25:01] Sani: pleasure and to everyone listening. Thank you as well. And please consider rating, reviewing and sharing the episode. And I will talk to you next week.