Learning from Failed Experiments with Daphne Tideman

[00:00:00] Daphne Tideman: I think there's people who are great at executing and you need people who are great at strategizing.

And I think when you put people who are great at strategizing in more like executioner roles, or like you limit the amount you can experiment and test around and do things out of the comfort zone, I think that's when you may be holding growth mindset back. ​

[00:00:33] Slobodan Manic: Welcome to nohacks,show, a weekly podcast dedicated to letting smart people talk to you about better online experiences. My guest today is one of the best people in the world to talk about growth. So if this is what you're into, keep listening to this episode. And this is another episode done as part of our partnership with Experimentation Elite.

For those of you who do not know already, Experimentation Elite is the UK's premier experimentation and CRO event happening in London on December 7th. So go to experimentation, elite. com and get all the information you need about this incredible event. My guests will be there, of course, talking about turning failed experiments into opportunities.

She is a growth consultant, growth mentor, a well known public speaker, author of Growing Happy Clients book and Growth Waves newsletters. She specializes in helping the best eco friendly and wellness D2C startups grow faster. Daphne Teidman, welcome to NOMAC show.

[00:01:23] Daphne Tideman: Thanks. I feel like I have a lot to live up to after that intro.

[00:01:27] Slobodan Manic: I just used the words growth or grow five times in that short

[00:01:30] Daphne Tideman: Yeah, I know. I was

[00:01:31] Slobodan Manic: You really are all in right.

[00:01:33] Daphne Tideman: yeah, we'll just say growth 20 times.

[00:01:36] Slobodan Manic: it'S amazing to have you on the podcast. So tell me about Experimentation Elite first, about that talk and what, what it will be.

[00:01:42] Daphne Tideman: Yeah. I'm so excited to, uh, to give that talk. Um, it's something that I started playing around with after an original talk that I did about how to basically squeeze the lemon out of experiments. And everyone just kept coming back to me about the point around. Failed experiments aren't bad. And it was such an eye opener to a lot of people.

And I was like, you know, rather than just talking about these three principles, let's really dive in. Let's use a new analogy. Let's, um, really deconstruct why we fear failure. Because it was something that I also was struggling with at times, of this feeling of like, oh, am I failing? Am I doing not, am I not doing things well?

Like, what did I do wrong when an experiment fails? So that's what got me started on it. This idea that like, let's change that whole idea around what failed experiments are, let's make it more comfortable. And also give really practical ways of how to then approach that like before, during, after. And one of the other things that I really wanted to do was, so many people come on stage and they're like, look at our big win, look what we've done, it's amazing, like we're so great.

I was like, I'm going to go on stage and I'm going to start with, I failed at this, I failed at that, and this is exactly how I failed and I'm just going to share that and we're going to get all the uncomfortableness out the way. So that we get more comfortable to also talk about it and change that way of doing it.

So, yeah, it's going to be a lot of fun. I hope.

[00:03:06] Slobodan Manic: I recently talked to Michael Ogort on this podcast. Who's talking about disappointment. Now we're talking about failures. So we're really ending 2023 on a, on a sour note,

[00:03:16] Daphne Tideman: I saw, I saw his talk that he's going to be, I think he's doing the same talk at experimentation elite, if I'm not mistaken. I saw it last weekend and it's absolutely incredible. And, um, it's taking it from like a different angle, more like the psychology of like, almost like. fails customers. So I think it's kind of like fun to have those two sides of it.

Like he's talking about like, when are we failing our visitors? And I'm talking about like, when are we failing when we're actually doing what we're trying to do to help our customers. So you kind of get two sides of it.

[00:03:45] Slobodan Manic: It's a great two for one. Exactly. So back to you and your career, what made you decide to go into growth?

[00:03:51] Daphne Tideman: So I had quite an unusual path because a lot of people start growth, even marketing a product. But for me, I'd actually studied finance. I. I had done a bachelor in international business and I was like, what do I do with my life? What master do I do? Do I do finance and marketing? And I kind of let these voices in my head tell me like, no, marketing's too easy.

And you know, you're really good at numbers. You should be doing finance. And so I did that, and I was like, I hate this, I absolutely hate this. It's about 90 percent men in suits. Guys, people actually wore suits to lectures. Um, and all they cared about was money and banking. And I was like, eh. So, I don't like that.

But, and at the same time I was doing marketing for a startup, uh, student association. So, trying to get, uh, students also into startups. And I was like, this is a lot of fun, but I hate all kind of the brand design side of it. So I was kind of like, I don't want that, but I don't want that. Where do I go? And I always call it a bit of serendipity because I was actually too late for the event but I signed up for an event and my friend was organising it so let me in last minute.

And he actually became a client but that's a different story. Um, and I met there at a growth agency called Rockboost and it was like, this is it. Like, at the time we called it growth hacking, I don't use that word anymore because that has very bad emblemating. Like it's kind of the meaning's been a bit skewed compared to what it was now, then.

But, um, I came across this agency that was like explaining it and I was like, well, we've got like creative side of marketing. We've got the data side, you know, it's very systematic. I was like, I get this. I love this. So I hounded the founder until they hired me as an intern and stayed there for five years going on to like lead the team.

And yeah, that's kind of how it all started.

[00:05:35] Slobodan Manic: So did you even know of the concept of growth and growth hacking back in the day before you realize, okay, this is me?

nope. And the funny thing was like a lot of other people didn't either. So I had no idea how to explain my role to other people. Cause they're like, Oh, you're a hacker. Do you like computers? I'm like, no. And then I would like say marketing, but like I realized later on, like me calling it marketing, and this is a whole of a rabbit hole was equating growth to marketing, which I really don't believe it is.

I think like growth is like a disciplined approach, just like experimentation. Um, to, uh, finding and understanding what's holding your business back. And marketing is just one of those levels. Like, it's one way to approach it. But a lot of the best growth comes either from the product side. I mean, that's why everyone's in love with product led growth right now.

Or it can even come from how you manage your operations. It can come from, like, pricing testing. There's so many different things that it can come from. Um, so yeah, I was not familiar, and no one really was. And luckily now it's more familiar. Um, but it's still, of course, quite, yeah. It's still a growing term in terms new. Yeah. It's still

very, very new. I, and the way people get into growth in general is the diversity of backgrounds is just absolutely incredible. I think it's good for the industry in the long run. So your niche is eco friendly and health D to C brands in growth. Like how did that happen? How did you just choose that?

Or did you work with some clients and then decided, okay, this is what I want to do? Or what

[00:07:02] Daphne Tideman: Yeah. So after Rugboost, I'd worked five years on the agency side and our clients were getting bigger and bigger and I was losing that kind of that passion that I have with startups. It was a lot more stakeholder management, which is at any point, you know, important, but like, it was just getting more like.

Talking endlessly about what we're doing versus doing stuff and I was like that doesn't really suit me I want to go back to these smaller companies and I also want it to be something that I believe in and stand behind Like I'm very in my terms of my personal life. I'm very into nutrition. I'm like a certified chef.

I do a lot of like Things like marathons and those kind of things. I love Like, that side of it, and I was like, well, and I'm also very passionate about like, hey, I want things to be good for the environment, I want things to have a positive impact. I don't want to grow for the sake of growing, if that makes sense, like, just to spread consumerism.

It's one of the reasons I hate Black Friday, we can't escape from it, but it's, yeah, it's, uh, it's not great. Um, but yeah, so I, like, joined Heights, uh, a, um, brain care company that had a brain supplement that really matched that kind of, that, niche that I hadn't defined yet at the time, and they were also B Corp, which is just a sign, like a certification that they're sustainable for those who don't know it.

And, and I was like, well, I really love that. And so when I left, left Heights eventually, because I missed a bit the variation I had before, I was like, well, I want to still keep that. I want it to either be good for the planet or good for people. And that's how I got into that. And I always say to people who sometimes struggle with growth, because it is quite broad, like you can also niche down in terms of like.

The industry you're working on, because now, because I see so many of those companies, I know what benchmarks look like, I know what kind of things consumers are considering, because a lot of them have overlapping audience. So it definitely like, helps narrow it down in that way. So yeah, that's how I kind of started, and like, try to be really strict about it, um, because it's, yeah, it's what I also love to do, and they're the kind of companies that excite me, and I use myself, like I use like, most of my clients products, because I just, yeah, it's what I'm passionate about.

[00:09:05] Slobodan Manic: that's very nice. And to someone in growth, a consultant, would you recommend niching down or it just be as general as possible?

[00:09:13] Daphne Tideman: I would say it depends on you, like, I think there's like an over focus on like, oh, you have to be a specialist. I don't think that's true. I think my like, superpower for businesses is often that I, I'm not specialized and I can look like broader and figure out like, okay. What's happening on all these different sides, where should we actually focus, which I couldn't do if I was a specialist.

Um, at the same time, if you want to specialize, that's also okay. I just always try to highlight that there's different ways to specialize. It can be a certain area, it can be a certain approach, like how you work with it, certain stage of businesses. Um, because a lot of people feel like, oh no, like with CRO too, it's like, oh, I have to be specialized in one area of it.

And I'm like, that's, that's not true. Like there's so many great things to do. We need generalists, too, just like we need specialists.

[00:09:59] Slobodan Manic: That's a very, very good point. So, uh, let's talk about growth mentor briefly and, and your experience being a mentor there. Uh, could you explain what it's about? How it works? Why someone should sign up?

[00:10:11] Daphne Tideman: Yeah, yeah, so, um, I think I signed up, like, two, three years ago. It's been a while. And I still do, don't I? I've got a few planned next week, um, as well. And, well, what Growth Mentor is, is an opportunity for people who can maybe not afford, like, a full time, like, advisor, or, like, even a part time advisor.

Because... You know, they they do tend to be more expensive based on the experience to get Support and also from multiple different people. So it's not about going deep with one person But just having a support system around you for your challenges And so I started as a mentee Mentee, I think at the time and I was just like this is really valuable.

This is really helpful My company had paid for it. I'm talking to all these incredible people and You know, I then even had like someone who I was getting a mentee call from like saying would you mentor me and I was like, okay We can do that. Um, and then I was like, well, let me also give back because I you know Obviously have to charge for my services.

I can't help everyone for free because that doesn't work either But I wanted to like give back part of my time to people who wouldn't be able to afford it And so I really like it for that reason. That's why I was so stuck with it like You know, it's a great way for people to get very affordable advice from different people.

So yeah, that's it in a

[00:11:31] Slobodan Manic: That, that is very nice of you to, that you're basically giving away your time to help someone who's getting started. Back to your domain topic, your, your experimentation elite, uh, presentation. And you mentioned it, but I have it in my notes as well. Growth experiments are like lemons. I like that a lot. I really like that a lot.

So, so basically the concept is if this first squeeze is a dud, you should continue and, you know, expect something else in the future. Let's talk about the growth mentality in general. Of course it's necessary if you want to, to make a big, big business larger. But why do a lot of brands not have that growth mentality?

What's stopping them?

[00:12:09] Daphne Tideman: Yeah. So, I would say like, it's, you know, a growth mindset is as much an individual as a company thing. So, I think. There's certain companies where there's a culture when things go wrong that they point fingers. And so that's the company side of it. It's like, what are actually our values and how do we handle it when things go wrong?

And I've actually realized, like, there's been cases where I felt like, you know, it wasn't as much a match in the end for a client I was advising. And I was really analyzing what... What was that feeling that I was getting? And I was like, it's when it goes wrong. It's when, because like, I'm not a magic genie who grows every single company I work with.

It's sadly not the truth. But it was like, when things would go not as well, not as quickly as they'd hoped, how would they react? And I think that has a ripple effect through all of it. And I'm, my partner, he's um, a developer at a, uh, edtech startup, and I love when he tells me about when things haven't gone right because rather than saying...

Who's fault is this, which I've sadly had a lot of companies I've worked with, you know, who's to blame his, um, bus doesn't says, I don't need to know who's behind it or, you know, what, what that is. I just want to understand, like, how can we make sure that we fix this and how can moving forward, we prevent this from happening again.

So I think that's really the company side of it. And then the individual and that trickles down to the individuals involved. And then with the individuals involved on that side of it, I think it's about also like this, um, which zone are you working in? So, I, I've done some workshops around growth mindset because I think it's a fascinating topic.

And, uh, when I give a workshop, I always try to explain like, you know, there isn't just comfort zone and not comfort zone. There's like lots of layers in between. Like we've got a comfort zone, we've got like our opportunities, um, zone, our learning zone. And then we've got our panic zone. And so, I think a lot of the time when people lose their growth mindset, it's not because they don't want to have a growth mindset, it's because they're in their panic zone.

Because everything feels new, everything feels scary, and they clench up and they just react. And I think understanding like, well, first of all, maybe this whole thing isn't in your panic zone, it just feels that way, which parts are actually in your comfort zone and whatnot. But also just like being able to take that step back and get back into like, hey, okay, this is something new, this is something scary, how do I build up things in my comfort zone?

And have more things there as well, so that I feel less scared when I'm in my panic zone and I don't lose my growth mindset. Um, we can go way more into depth in this, but these are kind of like the main thoughts that I've had about it, um, over time.

[00:14:48] Slobodan Manic: Excellent. But from a company perspective, adopting the mindset, does it start with the individuals they hire, or does it start from the management? And then just, you know, they say you need to adopt a growth mindset or else, which isn't by definition, isn't really growth

[00:15:04] Daphne Tideman: No, no, I would say it definitely starts up down. Like, You know, if the founders or the managers don't have that mindset, no one's going to have that. Because like I said, like, it's like a learning process that we have, just like with an experiment. Like, if we learn that every time we make a mistake, we're going to have fingers pointed, we're going to be scared to make mistakes, we're going to be scared to take risks, and we're going to do things in our comfort zone, because it's scary.

Or, we're going to cover our asses, which is not a healthy thing either. Because I always say, if you're moving fast, things are going to break. And rather than like, you know, stressing out about it, accept it, but also see like, well, what processes can we get in place? So I think like the highest level and level underneath that plays such a key role in that.

And then in terms of hiring, I definitely think then also not just having it, it's not enough to just having your values. During the interviews, trying to spot signs of a growth mindset. So one of my favorite things to do. Is when I, I always do an, uh, assignment whenever I'm helping a company hire or hiring myself.

And I tend to do it live because I just prefer to also like be able to see like, you know, what can they do versus how much help can they get to work this out. Um, and at the end of it I go through it and I share everything that I thought was great about it. I share everything that I feel like, hey, you know, these were potentially opportunities.

This is something that you didn't look at. And I just watch their face and I watch their reaction. But I also like. See what questions do they ask me? Are they trying to justify themselves and excuse themselves? Or are they, like, curious? Are they excited to learn? And that's for me been a really good test of growth mindset among other questions.

[00:16:46] Slobodan Manic: And would you say that, let's call it undetected growth mindset is common in companies and that employees are not being used the best way they can be,

[00:16:55] Daphne Tideman: Oh, that's a good question. So do you mean that, like, that people might actually have a growth mindset but they're not using it because of

[00:17:03] Slobodan Manic: their roles or their tasks are just, yes, yes.

[00:17:06] Daphne Tideman: So I think that's definitely, like, um, Um, if, if you've got a very like, and again, like, I don't think it's bad to just have an executioner role. I think there's people who, you need people who are great at executing and you need people who are great at strategizing.

And I think when you put people who are great at strategizing in more like executioner roles, or like you limit the amount you can experiment and test around and do things out of the comfort zone, I think that's when you may be holding growth mindset back. Like when it's like, we always do things this way, so we're doing this, or these are the focus areas versus like.

Getting different people involved and like, well, are we focusing on the right things? Is this the right approach? What would the opposite look like? Just asking those critical questions because I think very often it's, we can get into a business as usual, which is a horrible term in itself, but like just, you know, continue, continue, continue.

Um, because we know what our plan is and we do it, but that's when we're underutilizing that kind of like, exploration of their growth mindset and that ability to test. So like getting out of that, BAU mode and like exploring that more and opening that conversation, I think allows you to leverage it more.

[00:18:14] Slobodan Manic: but I couldn't agree more. So talking about growth experiments and, and how to make sure they're always used for good. actually enabling growth and not as just failures. What should be done before, during and after experiments to make sure they're not wasted?

[00:18:29] Daphne Tideman: might be giving away my whole talk now, by the way.

[00:18:32] Slobodan Manic: Uh, no, please don't, please don't, uh, give away as much as you're comfortable with because people need to

[00:18:37] Daphne Tideman: I mean, I'm always happy to share, but I think like, you know,

[00:18:41] Slobodan Manic: Let's not let, okay.

[00:18:43] Daphne Tideman: it won't be very long if I give away everything. Um, let me, let me cover one, I would say, like, first of all, focus on before. Focus on before you even run the experiment, because that's where it most often goes wrong. We often think, like, it's afterwards when we run the experiment and it fails and we're like, eh.

You know, that's, that's the missed opportunity. And there is a lot we could be doing different after and during, and I'll cover that all in the talk. But I would say before, one of the key things, and I'll explain more in depth on how to do this in the talk, is like, Um, making your broader test plan. So a lot of people, they go straight into like experiments and it's all like individual experiments.

And if they're a little bit more advanced, they might have themes. But what I really encourage doing to set yourself up for success is having a broader plan of like, you know, What exactly are you testing? What does success look like? Um How long are you going to be testing for? What are the resources available to do that?

And what are all the different ways that you could be testing it? Because then by also having listed all the different ways and, you know, define these things, when something fails, you don't want to run, you're like, no, we're testing this area for a month, you know, this was the first way we thought of testing it, but we have a whole list of other things within this, uh, we've learned this, this, this, you know, these are our KPIs for success and you don't like try to mold the, like, well, like change direction out of panic and it also makes your stakeholders more comfortable because you've agreed, Hey, all the research behind it has shown this.

So This is like why we think we should test around this. This is the issue, like let's say we feel like we're not building enough trust on the website. There's different ways we could do this based on our audience. We could be adding more like, you know, features in different places. We could be bringing reviews more up.

Like there's a million different ways and if one doesn't work, we're still gonna keep with our test plan to test a bit further. And that doesn't mean we endlessly test it if it's not working, but more like we give it a chance. We don't just do one test. So I would say that's one. Key thing to make that failure or someone comfortable, but also Make sure that you know, you don't lose track of things when it doesn't go, right?

[00:20:48] Slobodan Manic: And let's not reveal anything else from the talk because people need to go there and see. I have another question for you though. So growth, uh, consultancy and, and advisory, it requires you to do many things well, and I would say even more things well enough. Because you really need to know a lot of different things.

So what is the one thing that's over after all these years, you're still not good enough that you would say.

[00:21:12] Daphne Tideman: So there's a lot of things I'm not good enough at and there's a lot of things I choose not to be good enough at so

[00:21:20] Slobodan Manic: good answer. Yes.

[00:21:21] Daphne Tideman: I am very picky with my clients, am I the right fit? So if I feel like they're looking for a specialist because they've got one area, I say go to them. Go to that person. I would say, like, another area where I often get confused with growth is more the brand side.

Like, how do we build our brand awareness channels? How do we build, um, build a brand and that relationship with the customer? And whilst I do believe that, like, that building of the relationship and the retention. What is really, like, makes sense to have part of the growth side of it because it is very data driven.

That earlier stage, it's not something that I'm good at. It's a very different skill set. You need to be very creative. You're focusing on different KPIs. It's harder to measure. I'm not saying you can't measure it, but I'm just saying it is harder to measure and those aren't skills that I'm good at and for a long time, especially in my first like, head of growth role, I was like, oh, I should be good at that.

I was trying to learn it all. But I just realized, like, it's not, it's not my superpower, it's not what I'm great at. And so I also, and I also realized it was terrible to use the same process. And I've done talks about this too, actually. Um, the, because it just holds brand back. So that's definitely another area I would say I'm still not good at.

And I do believe it's important to understand the basics. And I do try to keep myself up to date with that. But I'm also choosing not to become a specialist in that. And I will say TikTok, because I just, I don't use TikTok.

[00:22:49] Slobodan Manic: Choosing not to be good at something. I love that answer. I think. That probably is the way to go because you need to draw the line at some point. You mentioned running and I cannot not ask a follow up question because I do that as well. So how does running and growth like is that connected in your mind at all?

[00:23:06] Daphne Tideman: Yeah, I've actually done a few posts about it, just because I, um, I always, like, whenever I'm running, I come up with these analogies, and I'm like, oh, this is interesting. Um, so first of all, I fail running. I fail often. Um, I did not run my second marathon because I got tendinitis. I did not run a half marathon a few years ago because I, um, got shin splits.

All of this is caused by the same injury of falling off a climbing wall five years ago. Um, it's great, it keeps coming back. It is back right now, whilst I'm training again. Uh, not as bad, luckily. But, um, so I think like there's definitely that mindset of like, things not working. So that's where I also connect like it with like, Hey, you fail at running at times because not everyone's going to be a PB, not everyone's going to be faster.

And the other thing with running and also with triathlons is if you go full out every single week, you're going to burn yourself out. And so I also use this analogy and I've used it quite often with team members too. It's like, we're doing a marathon here, not a sprint. If you're going to burn yourself out like this, we're not going to be able to keep going.

And so I think also that idea of, like, not pushing yourself to the extreme at every single moment, but rather, you know, doing, for example, uh, interval trainings once a week, where you are pushing yourself further because that's a moment where it's worth it. Like, that's another analogy that I think relates to it.

And also being able to keep going when it's hard, but knowing the difference between discomfort and pain. Because when you run through pain, you'll end up in a worse place, and it's the same with growth. If there's something painful, you need to take a step back and work out why is this so painful.

[00:24:42] Slobodan Manic: I love

[00:24:43] Daphne Tideman: Sorry, there's loads of other ones, but those are the main ones.

[00:24:45] Slobodan Manic: and I would to add to your analogy because I had a LinkedIn post a few weeks ago. It's not even a marathon. It's marathon training. It's really, because a marathon, anyone can walk for 5 or 6 hours, most people can't, and say it's a marathon. But the months of shin splints, the months of training, the months of pain when you don't want to do it but you do, and then Knowing that you have to go slow this for a few weeks.

I think that's the discipline I really connect that with growth. Excellent. Excellent. I love this answer. And, uh, let's just once again, remind people that December 7th experimentation leads in London. Daphne will be there talking about using failed experiments, uh, as opportunities for growth. And we didn't reveal way too much, but I think

[00:25:30] Daphne Tideman: No, there's loads, there's loads still to go, and

[00:25:33] Slobodan Manic: Exactly.

[00:25:33] Daphne Tideman: I'm still optimising it too, so it's been, I re recorded it today too, to like, watch back and continue to work on it, so. It's going to be, yeah, it's going to be a new talk.

[00:25:44] Slobodan Manic: I'm sure it's going to be credible. So Daphne, thank you for spending time with me on this podcast. Uh, and to everyone listening, uh, thank you. Please consider rating, reviewing, and sharing this episode with someone who will find it useful, and I will talk to you next week.