Communicating CRO with Iqbal Ali

[00:00:00] Iqbal Ali: But the thing is that he could never communicate with, with people. So nobody knew what the heck he was talking about, muffled and stuff like that. So I thought it was apt, somebody in a space where you're almost like.

An outsider trying to implement some futuristic stuff. This is called experimentation people and, people just not getting it. And ,it resonated. And plus it's just easier to draw than like faces and stuff. You just draw a spaceman.

[00:00:27] Slobodan Manic: ​Welcome to No Hack Show, a weekly podcast where I search the internet for smart people and then get them to talk to you about better online experiences. My guest today is the author of the ongoing CRO Tales comic series on LinkedIn, co host of the Treachery of Data YouTube series together with Matt Beischel, and a CRO consultant with 20 years of experience in UX design, development, data, and optimization.

20 years, 2 0, that is very impressive. Iqbal Ali, welcome to No Hack Show.

[00:01:10] Iqbal Ali: You're making me look old one. And also you said smart, which I'm not, so Yeah. 

One, one for one outta two is not bad.

[00:01:18] Slobodan Manic: Come on. Uh, it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast and be able to talk to you. So in addition to everything you, I just mentioned, you're also a self published comics creator. Your LinkedIn bio says this is a side hustle. So how did you start doing comics?

[00:01:33] Iqbal Ali: Uh, I've, uh, oh, good question. Uh, I kind of started, um, when I was kind of like really pissed off at work , 

[00:01:44] Slobodan Manic: Amazing. I love it 

[00:01:45] Iqbal Ali: you, you know. Yeah. Uh, you know what, like, I, I really wanna do, uh, I don't really want to do comic book stuff. And I've always wanted to do comic book stuff. So then I was, I was thinking like, one of the things I was learning through, uh, at work is like experimentation processes.

So I thought, hey, can I just apply a process to create comic books? And it turned out I could. And the first one was shit, and then it just kind of like, after you do it a few times It just, it just gets, you just get better. Uh, I don't know if I'm particularly good now, but I've got to a stage where I've, I've got a process in place and I'm kind of just going through, uh, through the process and publishing it.

And also meeting with people at Comic Con and stuff. So it's, it's good fun. Yeah.

[00:02:28] Slobodan Manic: think you're pretty good. I'll just say that. So, um, what was the first comic book that you completed? Like what was the subject?

[00:02:36] Iqbal Ali: So the, the first book I've completed was a book called Strange Skies. So it's about, uh, it was about a plane going through a wormhole. And ending up in strange skies and everybody on board is like, Oh, freaking out, like what the heck's going on? So, um, so that was the, that was the first book. And the reason why I going back to the processes, the reason why I chose that is because Fixed location.

It allowed me to really reduce the, uh, the variables and stuff that I had to draw because I was, because I was basically having to draw a lot of the stuff and I was utilizing a lot of 3D and then that kind of reduces, reduces the cost a lot more. So, um, so yeah, that was the first book that I wrote. And then from there, I just kind of, you know, iterated and created more 

[00:03:22] Slobodan Manic: that.

That, is so amazing, and yeah, the fixed location, I would never even consider something like that, but It's so cool, and when was that? When was the first one?

[00:03:30] Iqbal Ali: That was probably 2012.

[00:03:33] Slobodan Manic: Okay, 11, 11 years of experience creating comic books.

[00:03:37] Iqbal Ali: Yeah, yeah,

uh, yeah. I've, I've got like, uh, over ten books now? Eleven? Twelve? I, I, I don't know, I've lost count. Some of the stuff I pulled because I don't like this, uh, so I just kind of pull it off for sale, but, uh, but yeah, I've got a lot of books 

[00:03:55] Slobodan Manic: And before I hit record, we talked about Experimentation Elite, which is an incredible conference, and you just mentioned Comic Con. Can you draw any parallels between an event like Experimentation Elite and something like Comic Con?

[00:04:07] Iqbal Ali: Oh yeah, definitely. It's, it's kind of like, uh, with, with Experimentation Elite, one of the key things is you go there and there's people that you've followed for ages and people Who follow you and people you've, you've seen on LinkedIn space and then you get to meet them in person and then you start to talk about very, very in depth kind of, uh, experimentation stuff and you just nerd out and you're just in experimentation sort of, uh, nerd zone for, for like the whole day.

Um, MCM is very, very similar. So you have like, uh, I'm, I'm not big on social with Instagram stuff, but there's a few people that I do connect with. And being able to, uh, meet up with them, and being, meeting up with, like, people who've been reading the books over a period of years, and, you know, new people coming in, fans and stuff like that.

Um, it's, it's kind of nerding out in a very, very different, specific way. Uh, and, yeah, it's just, it's just a very different way of, kind of, it's I either way you're networking, but the networking is, uh, is, is slightly different, but kind of the same at the same time. So

[00:05:21] Slobodan Manic: Must be a very rewarding experience to go to a Comic Con, like, and, and, as an author, specifically, right?

[00:05:28] Iqbal Ali: it's, it's pretty good. Like the, um, it, it, it can be quite like this is, this is difference between like main difference between experimentation Elite and Comic-Con. Because even though ComicCon is kind of, you can do some networking. You're so on, uh, talking to people all the time, you're pitching the book, so you're constantly pitching, pitching, pitching, there's people coming around, and you can kind of like reading people, kind of like, okay, I'm going to adapt my pitch for you this way, and stuff like that, you have some Um, Really off key conversations with people, uh, like about colonialism, uh, in, in, uh, one of the, one of the subjects of my comic books, um, the latest comic book.

Um, but yeah, and so you get, like, all sorts of, uh, you get to meet all sorts of people from all sorts of different walks of life who have something, uh, in common, which is probably the subject matter of your comic book and stuff. So, yeah, I get a, I get a ton of stuff 

[00:06:27] Slobodan Manic: That's pretty amazing. And what you described as experimentationally experienced. There's a Zero Tales comic just for that, right?

Look at us, like, you know, patting on the back and all that stuff. So let's talk about Zero Tales for a little bit. The first question I want to ask is, what's up with the space dude?

And I see you calling space dude in one of the editions. So why, why is he a space dude?

[00:06:51] Iqbal Ali: Uh, so, the, the genesis of that was, uh, was, it was going to be, uh, a designer. So, and the designer was kind of like this, this space dude, alien, he's just way out there, he had a guitar. Sorry if there's a noisy in the background, it's 

[00:07:09] Slobodan Manic: I think it's fine. It's good enough. Don't worry.

[00:07:11] Iqbal Ali: So, um, uh, and the, he had a, the original had a guitar and stuff like that.

But the thing is that he could never communicate with, uh, with people. So nobody knew what the heck he was talking about, muffled and stuff like that. So, uh, so I thought it was, um, when, when sort of like going with CRO tales, I thought it was kind of apt, kind of, you know, uh, somebody in a space where you're almost like.

An outsider trying to implement some futuristic stuff. Like this is called experimentation people and, uh, people just not getting it. Uh, and it kind of, I don't know, it kind of resonated. And plus it's just easier to draw than like faces and stuff. You just draw a spaceman.

[00:07:54] Slobodan Manic: That's another optimization experimentation aided experience to, to help you do that. Uh, so CROtales hashtag obviously on LinkedIn is the best way to find, but also your, your website, IqbalA. com, right? It's where most of, or all of the additions, uh, can be any other comic books. What's the, the, the feedback you get from optimization people for, for CROtales?

[00:08:16] Iqbal Ali: It's, uh, mostly people like it, uh, and I'm, and it's kind of, it's kind of strange for me when I go out and kind of, um, meet with people that I thought I'm meeting for the first time, but they just kind of say, Oh, CRO Tales, yeah, yeah, I know you. And, uh, and it's kind of like, what the heck is going on here?

It's like, uh, so it's, it's kind of, it's kind of odd, but the reception has been really good. Certain ones resonate differently with certain people, and they kind of, you know, when I'm speaking to people, they mention a different CRO tale. Uh, say, Oh yeah, this, this was my favorite and it's, it's all, it's always something different, but

[00:09:00] Slobodan Manic: Can I say what my favorite was, uh, the one where, where they say that's our 10th CRO consultant this month or whatever, whatever the text was, man, that is, that, that's funny and hurtful at the same time for all the right reasons and I think it's amazing and what you're doing and especially like, like you said, you go to a conference and you're the CRO sales guy, oh my God, I love that, that, that is, is there a better icebreaker than that?

And you know, it's, Connecting over something.

[00:09:29] Iqbal Ali: yeah. And also like I've, I've found, cause I've not been able to, I had not been able to get into LinkedIn for a really long time. And I think speaking to a lot of people, a lot of people feel the same way. It's finding their in to, you know, how do I share something? What do I share? Like, what do I talk about?

It just feels really unnatural. Whereas something like this is kind of like a little bit of a distance. So yeah, it feels, it feels fine 

[00:09:58] Slobodan Manic: You're actually, so you're not a fan of the LinkedIn broetry as I see it called lately where everything is peachy and everything is perfect. Okay. Yeah. Uh, for, for me, that in was this podcast really? And this is when I started, I've been in that same boat for the longest time. Like, why would I, why would anyone care about anything I have to say?

But maybe if I get other people to say something, it's going to make more sense. And, but once you get started, it's actually. LinkedIn is pretty cool. I'm going to die on that hill. There's people who think it's not. I mean, there's a LinkedIn lunatics subreddit that is very popular. I'm dying on that hill that LinkedIn is an awesome place if you just know where to be and who to hang with.

So,

uh, 

[00:10:36] Iqbal Ali: And also how to communicate,

[00:10:37] Slobodan Manic: how to communicate, exactly.

[00:10:39] Iqbal Ali: If you, if you, if you're there to, because, because a lot of people think LinkedIn is their magic portal to get clients. It's, that's not what it is really.

[00:10:48] Slobodan Manic: I completely, I mean, just be useful and be nice. That's what I, I mean, I've had, last month I've had conversations with I'm old enough to say juniors compared to me. And that's what I tell them. Just be nice to people and be the problem solver. And you don't need to sell anything that people will buy naturally.

If you, if you're that kind of person, people who want to hire you, work with you, all that comic books. That's storytelling, and there's also storytelling with data and this, when you mentioned that, when we were preparing for the episode, I knew this is what I wanted to talk about, like six, seven years ago, I had a data visualization website that I don't know why I pulled it off.

It was, uh, I think it was called ballsandnumbers. com. It's statistics. So sports statistics and just analyzing mostly basketball data because I was so deep into D3JS and all that stuff at the time I was really hardcore with it. So. Connect the dots for me, please, from going from comic books to, to, to data storytelling in, in CRO specifically.

[00:11:45] Iqbal Ali: yeah, you know, like for, for the longest time, I, I, I can kind of see what I was getting from writing comics and, and, um, writing stories specifically, but I couldn't put, uh, I couldn't put a tag in it. I couldn't get it. But, um, but when I started to, uh, did this project specifically around data visualization, I kind of understood like exactly how.

The comic stuff and storytelling was, was, uh, was, was helping me. Um, for instance, with, with, um, storytelling, you've got, like, one of my favorite books, uh, in storytelling. And it's, it's one of the most influential books for me. It's a book called, uh, Dramatica. It's a theory of story. And it basically, uh, equates.

A, uh, a story mind to a, uh, as a, a story is analogous, an analogous, uh, to a mind trying to solve an in inequity or a problem. And when you think of it like that, you can kind of apply it to a lot more things. Um, so one of the things that they, they kind of mentioned, and one of the things that's kind of key point with storytelling is you have a mode of expression.

So, uh, in your mode of expression, it can either be, uh, sort of, um, uh, informational, like you just, uh, like documentary style, like you're just, like, if you're thinking about it from a data visualization perspective, you're just presenting all of the information for somebody to explore. And be able to look at and look at in different ways and stuff like that.

Um, so just much more informational, sort of, you know, here's the way things are. No subjective opinion, very, very objective. And then the other, the other, uh, three are kind of like, uh, explanatory, like, uh, how to graphic, how to guide, infographic or something like that. Um, and you got stuff like, uh, purely entertainment.

So, it, like, something in, in, inspirational, like, there's a lot of, Uh, info, uh, info graphics and stuff like that. There's a book, Information is Beautiful, which, uh, just, you know, 

[00:14:04] Slobodan Manic: it's

in the other room. I'm not going to get up and get it and show it to you, but yes,

it's an 

[00:14:08] Iqbal Ali: Yeah, it's such, it's such an amazing book. And that is kind of, it falls into, like, the main mode of expression there is, is, uh, entertainment. You kind of get a lot out of the beauty of, uh, of, uh, of all the pieces. And then the, the final one, and I think this is the one that most people are actually doing.

with data visualization is persuasive, and that falls into the category of propaganda. Um, and that is where you have some, uh, something that you want to communicate, uh, like persuade or, uh, make, make, uh, somebody, uh, uh, commit to a particular decision or something like that. And depending on what mode of expression you have.

You're gonna, you're gonna, uh, approach the story, what you want to display in a very, very, very different way. Um, so, you know, one of the things that I find really, um, sort of off putting is when people present stuff as if it were, this is informational, but it's not. propaganda. It's persuasive, but just being clear about it means you can really lean heavily into it and just, and it's fine.

You're just kind of saying, um, here, you don't need to look at it in all those different dimensions. I've done all of that work for you. This is a key thing that I want you to take away from this information. And when you, when you look at it like that, it's kind of, uh, um, it kind of makes sense. A lot of our presentations and stuff like that are, are persuasive, uh, sort of data

[00:15:46] Slobodan Manic: And, hey, there are very few things politicians like more than cherry picked statistics, so Yeah, absolutely. Like you, you can, you can make anything a lie if you show the wrong numbers, like they can be correct numbers, but they can be the wrong numbers to display. And it can still be a very propaganda basically, like that, that's what it is.

So, uh, you work as a freelance CRO consultant these days and for, for a while now, how do you use this like storytelling and data, uh, when you communicate your CRO findings with your clients, shareholders, whoever it is.

[00:16:18] Iqbal Ali: So, um, I'll, um, I'll be honest, like it's, uh, uh, slowly starting to shift, like the kind of stuff that, um, that I've been doing, like there was certain projects I was doing. specifically to do with data visualization. And with those, it's kind of, for instance, with um, one of the things, uh, about, um, about experimentation, uh, presentations and stuff, is how to visualize uncertainty, how to communicate certainty level, uncertainty level.

And it so happens there's a field of study called probabilistic Grammar of graphics, which is just kind of catered to that sort of, uh, that sort of thing, the, the grammar of graphics, um, about visualizing, uh, um, uncertainty or certainty. And, um, so with, with that sort of thing in mind, like there's, then, you know, once you discover about that, you can kind of, uh, do some more research into it, look up studies and stuff.

Uh, and one of the things that I've found was. Um, was frequency framing versus probabilistic framing. So one of, this is one of the things that, uh, we do as CRO people is we say 90 percent significance or 90 percent probability or whatever, but in, uh, which is a probabilistic way of communicating. But in actual fact, uh, uh, most people, and these are, there's some studies to back this up, uh, don't understand probabilistic, um, framing as much as frequency framing, which is the opposite, which is like 1 out of 10.

The chance of rain is 2, 2 days out of 10 days it's going to rain or whatever. And so, um, communicating that way. Is, is a bit, uh, I've seen it a little bit more clearer,

[00:18:16] Slobodan Manic: So you think simplifying the way you communicate is usually, I'm not going to say always, but usually it is the way to go, right?

[00:18:23] Iqbal Ali: Yeah, yeah, just simplifying and just kind of, uh, Again, just understanding the, the audience. So, uh, your audience are, are people who are not scientists. So then, then kind of finding the, the, the, the easiest way to communicate, Uh, and not focus so heavily on the certainty. Cause what the probab the, the good thing about like frequency framing is, You know, like three blobs out of five blobs or something like that.

Very, very easy to put in and kind of very easy to reference and stuff. Whereas the percentages and stuff like it's a lot of words and kind of pollute stuff a little bit people don't really care about that. The certainty they just want to know, but they don't really want to know if you see what I mean, 

[00:19:14] Slobodan Manic: No, no, I got it. That that's very interesting. And, uh, one last thing I wanted to talk to you about is the YouTube series that you have with, with Matt Treachery of Data. I'm not a native English speaker, so I had to Google treachery before this episode. Now I know what it means. Thank you. Uh, tell me about that.

Like what, what, what exactly do you cover? In, uh, in, in, in, I guess, YouTube podcast, video podcasts.

[00:19:40] Iqbal Ali: yeah. So similar to you, I think you, you mentioned, uh, um, earlier, um, during the lockdown, we were looking for. Uh, we, we started off, um, uh, going to these conversion round table, which we have every Friday and then, uh, um, which we just have a sit around chat and stuff. Uh, and then we thought, you know, why don't we, why don't we do like a companion podcast summarizing, like we, we get, uh, people coming on from all sorts of.

So different backgrounds and stuff. And we cover very different topics and interesting stuff that we discuss. And it's, I was often thinking like it's, it'd be useful to share some of this information. Um, to, to people in the, in the, you know, broader community, like a specific topic that we were discussing that we thought was interesting.

So we started doing that. Um, we kind of stopped for a while because everyone's kind of busy, but, uh, but yeah, and we, we kind of cover all sorts of like specific topics. Um, you know, like, uh, last one we did was meta analysis, um, and, uh, And yeah, yeah, so we just kind of like pick a topic, discuss it and, and yeah, and then just throw it out there for, for everyone to,

[00:20:57] Slobodan Manic: I think it's really cool. And your guests are, well, some of my favorite people all of you had, you had Shiva, you had Tracy, like those are incredible people that, that I really love that were on this podcast as well. More obviously, not just them. Uh, but, uh, tell me about CRO round table. Is that online or is that in person?

[00:21:16] Iqbal Ali: That's, uh, online. So, um, every Friday, 4pm, um, 4pm GMT, as we are in now in London. Um, and it's just a Zoom chat. So, and, and anybody can, anybody can join. And we often get like all sorts of really interesting people coming on with an interesting topic they want to discuss an interesting problem that they have at work and, uh, and yeah, we just get into it with, you know, like nothing's recorded so everyone can be really, really honest about

[00:21:52] Slobodan Manic: super cool. And, and I mean, I'll join soon. I didn't even know the time. I didn't even know if it was, I thought it was in person. Yeah, but you'll see me there soon. You'll see me there. Uh, a very, we talked about this in preparation, like before I hit record, like there's a number of people in optimization industry that are very visible and it's a finite number of people.

And I, like I told you, like they're super amazing. I, I. I haven't had a bad experience, they're incredible people, everyone I talk to, especially on this podcast, but not just the podcast. And then there's the thousands of people who are sort of invisible and not really vocal, for whatever reason, it doesn't really matter why.

But what can we, and I guess we, we're the ones who speak into the microphone, so I guess, what can we do to get more people to become more public?

[00:22:45] Iqbal Ali: I think it's interesting. I was speaking to David Sanchez, uh, Duriel, uh, earlier, and he, uh, at the last Experimentation Elite, it was his idea to, for us to each draw ourselves and, and, and, you know, put it together and post it. And he was really, didn't want to post it. And, um, and then I had to just push him to say, look, look, just post it, man.

I'm not going to post it. You post it. It's your thing. So I think just kind of, just kind of, um, saying that it's, it's okay to post stuff. And, um, and, you know, I think we, we as a community can get a little bit too hung up about statistics and stuff and shaming about that sort of stuff. Uh, and just kind of, you know, be a little bit more.

Uh, supportive, and also just to, just to have, uh, ourselves, um, write all a bit more different, varied kind of ways of communicating. Like for instance, the CRO Tales is kind of, you know, it's, it's a, it's a very different way of kind of communicating. It means that I don't have to, I don't have to spout words about saying, hey, this is what I think about this.

It's like the comic does it for me, right? So, um, so there's different ways of communicating, uh, what it is that you want to communicate and just be able to figure out, help people figure out what is it that they want to say and then that's kind of like their voice, right?

[00:24:19] Slobodan Manic: Right. And also to people who are thinking about becoming more vocal, I think that's a good way to put it. Just DM someone that you've been following and just tell them, hey, I like this, I would like to do the same thing you're doing. If that person says, go to hell, I don't want to talk to you, they're the asshole.

It's not you. And just keep asking. And I guarantee you that's not going to happen, by the way. But yeah, uh, uh, CRO Roundtable. That's tomorrow. We're recording this on a Thursday. So I'll do my best to be there. Uh, so, Sierra Let me just recap everything you do online because I thought I had too many projects.

No, no, you win. Sierra O'Tails, uh, the comic book series, The Space Dude, which is absolutely amazing. Uh, Treachery of Data, Sierra Roundtable, Iqbal on LinkedIn is a great follower as well. What else? Is there anything else you're doing?

[00:25:10] Iqbal Ali: Uh, so, uh, yeah, so I do the ongoing comic book series and long form comics. Uh, I, I'm building an AI tool. Um, so

[00:25:20] Slobodan Manic: is.

[00:25:20] Iqbal Ali: yeah, this is to text mine. Uh, data is kind of going all right. So use the reviews and kind of making sense of that. So kind of putting it into a much bigger process and, um, and yeah, and obviously my day job as well, which is, uh, uh, kind of, you know, experimentation co pilot, as I call it, for, uh, for experimentation teams, just training people, coaching, kind of supporting experimentation programs.

[00:25:49] Slobodan Manic: That, that, that all sounds so amazing. So Iqbal, I want to thank you. This was a great conversation. I learned today. I learned a lot of things that I had no idea about today. And, and that, that, that's always a nice experience. Thank you for being on the podcast. Uh, it was such a pleasure to talk to you. And to everyone listening to this episode, please consider rating, reviewing, sharing, whatever you do with podcast.

And I will talk to you next week.